don’t go and try enforcing your beliefs onto others. it will never end well.

“In pursuit of change, feminist organizations may be unwittingly employing a cultural centrism every bit as arrogant as that used to justify the millennia of patriarchy they so deplore.”

so true… >,<

good write mori… and nice comments… sorry mine's a bit plain… =__=;;

“In your example of Middle Eastern honor killings, murder is culturally acceptable and it continues for that reason.”

The honor killers themselves evidently think it’s okay. And you are missing my main point, which is: you similarly don’t doubt that what you are arguing so passionately for is good. The honor killers enforce their vision of good on others unquestioningly, because it is dictated by their culture. Logically, how can you say that what you are proposing to force on others unquestioningly is not merely culturally mandated, in a similar fashion?

“Secondly, this article is not just talking about the Japanese, but laws in the Philippines and the United Kingdom. The proposed UK law would apply to all sexualized images of minors, not just the Japanese-made ones.”

Exactly, which only makes it worse. You have to understand, an anime with a single panty shot of a high school girl put in as a gag can technically be said to contain “a sexualized image of a minor.” This could make a completely innocuous comedy show criminal to watch. It’s a far cry from being specifically targeted at porn.

“You talk like we’re wantonly trying to destroy their society here.”

It doesn’t matter if it’s wanton or surgical. You are acting like you have the right to dictate what they shall or shall not do, and that is the cultural centrism I decried. This act of dictating terms from a supposed moral superior to lessers, coming from a movement that began for equal rights for women, is intellectually bankrupt.

Finally, that study you cited pretty clearly spells out that allowing men access to porn results in less rape. Let me quote it:

“These results, which suggest that pornography and rape are substitutes, are in contrast with most previous literature. However, earlier population-level studies do not control adequately for many omitted variables, including the age distribution of the population, and most laboratory studies simply do not allow for potential substitutability between pornography and rape.”

Secondly, this article is not just talking about the Japanese, but laws in the Philippines and the United Kingdom. The proposed UK law would apply to all sexualized images of minors, not just the Japanese-made ones. In any event, I bet most Japanese people would tell you that their culture is about a lot more than sexually violent pornography. You talk like we’re wantonly trying to destroy their society here.

Just to reinforce the gist of what I’ve just said: rape and needless violence against women is not okay anywhere or for any reason. How are we supposed to improve the lives of citizens if we’re too afraid to challenge outdated ideas? Would you say that slavery is acceptable because the United States practiced it for centuries?

“Do you seriously think that rapists base their actions on whether or not they are socially acceptable? If they could fit within society, why would they rape at all?”

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. In your example of Middle Eastern honor killings, murder is culturally acceptable and it continues for that reason. You’re straying very close to the idea that “good boys don’t need to rape”. Most rapes are committed by men who are acquaintances of the victim, who are seen as normal until (or even after) they are accused of rape. These men get away with their crimes *because* they fit in, because they don’t “look” like bad men who live on the fringes of society.

Now on to the “More Porn, Less Rape” study. Which studies are you referencing, exactly? For the following paragraph, I’m going to refer to Todd Kendall’s study “Pornography, Rape, and the Internet”. It was the most frequently cited work in the search I performed. The only other study I could find would not let me access the entirety of the paper, only the abstract. Here is a link to Kendall’s study: http://www.law.stanford.edu/display/images/dynamic/events_media/Kendall%20cover%20+%20paper.pdf

When examining research about the relationship between porn and rape, we should keep in mind that a large number of rapes go unreported. The most dramatic finding of Kendall’s study was the correlation between increased access to porn and arrest rates of 15-19 young men. However, we goes on to note that “the estimated effects on arrest rates for other age groups are statistically insignificant and smaller in magnitude”. Kendall also notes that acquaintance rape is less reported than stranger rape and that this difference affects his study. He admits: “To the extent that the effect of pornography on rape might differ across these categories of rape, one should be extremely careful in extrapolating the results reported here to understanding rape generally.”*

There are more variables that need to be accounted for in these studies. Do they take into consideration the changes in sex crimes legislation, education, and cultural values we have seen in recent decades? American society has seen a boom in the availability of information and entertainment. Increased access to pornography is only one aspect of these changes.

An accurate study of this kind can never be done. The research team would have to give porn to a randomly selected group (and they would have to decide what kind of porn it would be), then observe them for years. Kendall

In fact, the number of all reported violent crimes has been on the decline since the early 1990s.** It is highly unlikely that the rise in the availability of porn is responsible for this decline. It remains to be seen whether these new restrictions on sexually violent material will lead to an increase in rape.

*Page 5 of “Pornography, Rape, and the Internet” by Todd Kendall, http://www.law.stanford.edu/display/images/dynamic/events_media/Kendall%20cover%20+%20paper.pdf

** http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
** http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_01a.html This table shows the percentage changes in different categories of crime. I chose to use the data from 2006, since that was year in which the “More Porn, Less Rape” study was published. As you can see, the rate of violent crime is down 22.5% from 1997 to 2006.

The arrogance I mentioned is in foisting a one-size-fits-all view of the world on other countries. In short, eradicating their culture and replacing it with our own – even if their way of doing things strikes us as “wrong” – is fundamentally arrogant. And this is precisely what Equality Now has said: an entire Japanese industry is wrong, and we, the foreigners, are right, because we are doing this on behalf of women, and how can you argue against that? If you cannot understand how sinister that line of reasoning is, I fear we are not going to be able to have a meaningful conversation on this topic.

Now on to specific points.

“Your suggestion that these laws are a step away from forced chemical castration of the public is a ridiculous argument to extremes.”

Your phrasing, not mine. I merely point out that if you accept that the loss of freedom for security is okay, and do not draw a line somewhere to preserve individual rights, that is one logical result. I have not said anything about “one step.”

“They are trying to make it clear that those acts are not okay.”

Do you seriously think that rapists base their actions on whether or not they are socially acceptable? If they could fit within society, why would they rape at all?

“Remember, even if something is cultural accepted, that doesn’t always make it right.”

I would like you to remember that when it comes time to enact sweeping legislation to take away more personal freedoms.

“Do you think we should encourage that behavior? If the abuse of women and children is treated so casually — as a pastime, as a game — the horror of those crimes are lessened.”

It’s not a matter of encouragement or not. Look at what happens when societies repress and censor pornography – sexual assaults increase. Numerous studies are in agreement on this, and I have yet to see an independent study that concludes otherwise (though there are many studies funded by political groups that purport to show the opposite conclusion, because that is what they were designed to do.)

In this situation, whether or not you find pornography abhorrent, the responsible thing to do is to make it available so as to minimize the number of actual rapes on actual women.

That is the priority, right?

First of all, most games in which the main objective is to kill come with context. You’re killing zombies, or Nazis, or mobsters to protect yourself. You stand a chance of being killed yourself, because these enemies can protect themselves. In most of these games, the point is to kill to survive. Not to kill just for fun, and certainly not to kill for sexual pleasure. Sexual abuse of women and children is never justifiable. There is absolutely no point to it other than to degrade the victim and gratify the perpetrator.

Secondly, sexual assault is a much more widely spread problem than murder. The odds of a woman being raped are much higher than the odds that someone will be murdered. Sexual assault is a real fear and a present danger. In no way should we condone the act as something to take lightly. If, like you suggest, the people who purchase these manga, anime, or games are predisposed to misogyny, we absolutely should not make it okay for them to indulge in those fantasies.

I hope that you read and respond to my comments. I would love to continue a dialogue on this issue and maybe help you to understand my perspective.

It seems we are interpreting the same ideas in two different ways. You state that violent video games are not the cause of violent behavior, but rather “a reflection and critique of society”. However, this is exactly what worries me. Games that feature sexual assault and rape only normalize these crimes. You insinuate that these games appeal to people who already harbor misogynistic tendencies. Do you think we should encourage that behavior? If the abuse of women and children is treated so casually — as a pastime, as a game — the horror of those crimes are lessened.

Your suggestion that these laws are a step away from forced chemical castration of the public is a ridiculous argument to extremes.

These laws and the people who support them do not pretend that banning games with child pornography or sexual violence will truly fix people with “compulsive sexual issues”. They are trying to make it clear that those acts are not okay.

I’m really not sure what you mean when you mention that societal norms change with time. I can only hope that you’re not suggesting that child abuse or rape are on their way to becoming a new norm. Remember, even if something is cultural accepted, that doesn’t always make it right.

Your last sentence is just insulting. Women who want to stop child abuse and sexual violence from becoming acceptable are somehow arrogant? Preventing crimes against women from becoming normalized is supposedly on par with centuries of systematic oppression and abuse? That’s ridiculous.

However… thats based on the current interpretation of the law, since all of these laws are rather vague. In the future they could rule differently. I feel like certain legal and socially accepted media like certain hollywood movies and live acted pornography is much worse for society than these types of anime.